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Working Dogs - Seeking Help with Flock Guardian Dogs - Maremma' s and Great Pyr

by Jean-Marc Leclerc
(Embrun, Ontario, Canada)

More looking for advice than a comment.

Three months ago I purchased two Maremmas and one Great Pyrenees flock guardian dog because coyotes were eating us out of business. The maremmas were 16 months old and the pyrenees as well. The first 6 weeks were frantic with our 60 acre pasture constantly criss-crossed by coyotes at night and the dogs constantly running beyond the farm.

Turns out the pyrenees wanted to run after the sheep. That has been corrected and she now behaves even with the baby lambs. The maremmas were more properly trained and imprinted. They are excellent with the sheep (300 head) specially at night. Our sheep are now finally calm and willing to stay all day on pasture. The sheep come home at night.

It was my decision to go out with sheep every morning until I could control the pyrenees and keep the maremmas on the farm. Now the dogs wait for me to accompany the sheep out to pasture. In the same manner they are seldom willing to stay with sheep out on pasture.

I am sure I created this problem. I feed the dogs out on pasture amongst the sheep twice a day. Now I am looking for suggestions as to how I can encourage, convince, entice (whatever) the dogs to stop loving me and want to stay with the sheep. Open to all suggestions!

Thank You.

Jean-Marc Leclerc

Comments for
Working Dogs - Seeking Help with Flock Guardian Dogs - Maremma' s and Great Pyr

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guard llamas
by: Royal Ranch

Although I have Pyrs and have worked with them for years, our property is too small to encounter the problem that you are having. The reason I am chiming in, is to introduce you to guard llamas.

They are fantastic with sheep, will never leave the herd, great against coyotes, and don't eat dog food-ha! There are many rescues that have llamas that are great for this job, and many llamas that would love the position!

I use both llamas and dogs and have never lost an animal to a predator on my ranch which sits at 9,000 feet in elevation, lots of predators!
Thanks for the great website.
Help with Flock Guardian Dogs
by: Arlette

Hi Jean-Marc,

Well, I'm a lot more comfortable in my knowledge of sheep than I am in my knowledge of guard dogs, nonetheless, I will extend a few bits and pieces for you and encourage other readers to share a comment as well.

It sounds like you have done the work to settle the Pyrenees and keep the Maremma's on the place. That is half your battle, so good job. We struggle with dogs who want to go wandering so perhaps you could share with us what worked for keeping your dogs home.

With the first couple months being as frantic as they were I wonder if what was missed was time for the new dogs to bond with their new charges. These dogs are bonded with the sheep they were raised with but they need the same bonding process when they arrive to a new flock.

If things are calmed down enough I would try going through a process of bonding them to your flock as you would a pup. It shouldn't take nearly as long since the desire will be there.

If your sheep are still coming in at night then I imagine the dogs are as well. Can they be penned right with the sheep?

I'm not sure of your set up but if your dogs are crossing fence-lines to return to you then perhaps some work on teaching them that no matter what they don't cross those fence boundaries.

Another option I have read about is attaching a drag object, such as a tire, to the dog to discourage wandering. Or maybe you could tie your dogs out in pasture until they realize this is where you need them. All come with pros and cons.

With any of the suggestions you will of course have to gauge what is comfortable and feasible in your set up and with your predator pressure.

The other thing I would encourage you to do is check out the Yahoo group 'Working LGD's'. There are all sorts of people and opinions on this list. You're sure to receive several suggestions about handling your dogs through this challenging time.

I am very intrigued that you found three dogs that were 16 months of age and had some background work already in place.

We are in the process of talking with someone who raises LGD's to a young adult age prior to selling. We wish to learn the process and begin it at our place.

It sounds like this is how your dogs may have been raised and I think you were wise to buy these young adults. Once you have them re-bonded to your sheep I think you will have very effective dogs for a few years.
Re-bonding sheep with dogs and vice-versa
by: Jean-Marc Leclerc

Hello Arlette,
Thanks for taking the time to suggest options for my guard dogs. I am working on re-bonding them with the sheep. At the outset, it took 6 weeks before the sheep would not flee them on sight. To them they were white coyotes. To the dogs these were very confused sheep. Now the ewes will park their baby lambs with the sleeping dogs and proceed to eat farther away. This much has been gained. I am proceeding with self-feeders out on pasture as a means of being less prominent as a pasture fixture. Will let you know how this works out.

Thanks again for your help.

Jean-Marc Leclerc
Update on guard dog behavior
by: Jean-Marc Leclerc

Hello Arlette,
Thought I would update the progress of my dogs. Seeing as they are making progress. The biggest difference is how they are maturing from affection starved puppies to responsible guard dogs. I can come and go from the pasture now without them following me everywhere. They stay with the sheep. I accomplished this with keeping the pasture bowls full and gradually decreasing visits to pasture. Their biggest daily moment right now is inspecting the dwarf corn pasture to make sure no sheep are left behind at night. The sheep have access to the corn pasture late afternoon to dusk. Coyotes don't come on pasture at night anymore and this has reduced the dogs adrenaline level in early morning...Coyotes are nearby as we here them howling from time to time. Last year we lost 23 lambs and six ewes between Mid September to mid June. I anticipate a much more pleasant winter this year. Thanks again.

Jean-Marc
Update on Dogs
by: Arlette

Thank you for your update. It is a pleasure to read of your success with your guard dogs.

Due to your insight and work with them you have a pair of dogs that will serve you well for a number of years. As you mention you can rest a little easier knowing your flock is being guarded well this winter.

We were hit hard with losses from coyotes this year as we got caught with too few dogs for our situation. We are currently night penning while we search for adult guardians ready to go to work. I am encouraged to read of your success.
Raising LGDs
by: Mary Kellogg

We have raised these working dogs for many years, and I do NOT sell puppies any longer unless they are going with a trained adult. I am always fairly certain of the dogs' behavior before they leave here.

I do not believe most people can successfully develop them properly, and got tired of trying to deal with the problems created by people taking them into the house, etc. For some reason, it seems most folks simply cannot follow instructions!

We usually spend up to six hours on the phone with new owners--plus the time spent here at the farm if they come to pick up their dog, which I prefer, of course!

A proper extended bonding period with their new charges is usually overlooked, but is very important.

Since we moved to Oklahoma, our breeding program has been modified somewhat to reduce the territory size of the dogs, as most of our dogs now go to acreages or farms rather than huge ranches.

I am always happy to try to help folks with LGDs--even if they did not get their dog from us.
Available Proven LGDs
by: Mansion Farms

I operate a working sheep, goat and poultry farm. As such, I use Livestock Guardians for my predator protection. I raise, train and rescue working dogs from pups to older LGDs. My dogs come from owner surrenders who did not know what type of dog they had and let the training concept get away from them, to farm liquidations needing to place proven dogs quickly, to true rescue situations where the wiring of the animal needs to be evaluated and determined prior to placement on a new farm or not at all in some cases.

If you'd like more info about my dogs or training, visit www.mansionfarms.com.
Help with Flock Guardian Dogs
by: Mary Kellogg

The bonding process is most critical, and we often send butcher goats with our dogs to help assure success--most people do not pay enough attention to this most important step.
Of course, that takes some adjustment as well, as the dogs have to learn to accept that the new flock is part of their charge.
Two of our dogs successfully bonded in ONE day to Alpacas, despite having never seen them before.A goat went with them to their new flock...

As we rarely sell pups, and ONLY with an adult or to a situation where there is an adult, we know the qualities of our dogs before they are sold.

Many times we keep our dogs for up to 2 years for those who need them really solid.

I am always happy to help by answering questions.
More on LGD's
by: Lonnie Penner

I only just read Jean-Marc Leclerc's story. There is lots of good advice posted. I would like to add our experiences to that.

I agree with Ms Kellogg, bonding is the critical factor. In our experience though there are several different working styles in any breed. I have had Pyrs who would not stay with the sheep but worked a perimeter. These dogs will keep expanding the perimeter and can become a problem if you live in a populated area. Others bonded to the sheep and never leave the flock.

We have purchased dogs and moved them to our flock with no issues at all. In fact we put a new dog with a flock, when she hit an electric wire she just bugged out. It took about ten days to get her back in the pasture, but she was always found in a place where she could see her sheep.

I believe part of Jean's problem was putting that many young dogs together at one time. It's kind of like turning a bunch of teenagers loose at an amusement park.

The pyr chasing the sheep at 6 months is a normal issue. I call it litter mate play and it is easily discouraged.

I find it interesting to read about other people's experiences with their dogs. More input leads to better understanding.

Thank you for reading my ramblings.

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